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Poslao: 02 Mar 2012 17:43
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mean_machine ::Citat:SU-30MKI ima ojacanu konstrukciju koja povecava tezinu, dvosed je, ima kanare sa mehanizacijom za njihovo pokretanje, i ima BARS radar koji je tezak ko Trepca!
Po tebi je bars znatno tezi radar od irbis-e? Ili sam pogresno razumeo pominjanje Trepce?
Bars je izuzetno tezak radar koji je remetio centar mase kod obicne tridesetice.
Da bi pomerili centar uzgona napred morali su se primeniti kanari koji su uspostavili zeljeni balans aviona.
Citat:The new radar weighs more than 650 kg and caused the center of gravity of the aircraft to alter significantly, thus greatly degraded the aerodynamic performance and weapon payload arrangement of the Su-30MKK, which is far less adaptable to the new heavy radar than Su-30MKI, because the two were based on two totally different airframes, a fact that is confirmed by Jane's all the World's Aircraft. If the new radar was to be adopted, canards must be added and flight control software must be also modified for Su-30MKK just to remain the same level of performance as before, and thus, in addition of paying for the more expensive new radars, a huge amount of money must also be spent in upgrade the aircraft as well, a feat that was considered not economical and simply not affordable by China.
Ruski izvori navode da je avionika kod SU-35S daleko laksa od bilo koje postavljene u porodicu SU-27 i to se upravo navodi kao jedan od glavnih razloga za smanjenje tezine kod S modela.
Postavio sam taj tekst na nekoj od tema, pa me mrzi da ga sada trazim.
Odsustvo kanara je samo jos jedna potvrda da je ukupna masa radara i avionike manja.
Citat:Russia reveals lightweight version of NO11M Bars radar
Piotr Butowski JDW Correspondent
Gdansk
Russian radar design bureau Tikhomirov NIIP will present for the first time a lightweight version of its N011M Bars radar at Aero India 2005 in Bangalore, 9-13 February.
The mock-up, designated Bars-29, is being marketed for new versions of the MiG-29 multirole fighter aircraft.
Bars-29, with electronic scanning, is designed for MiG-29M2 (multi-role combat aircraft, MRCA), which are being offered for India's requirement for 126 lightweight multirole fighters, as well as for mid-life upgrades of about 50 MiG-29s currently in service with the Indian Air Force (IAF). NIIP officials said that the Bars-29 radar "has all possible interfaces" and can be installed on other fighters including the Dassault Aviation Mirage 2000, which is also taking part in the tender.
During initial negotiations, India requested that the MiG-29's radar be compatible with the N011M Bars radar installed in the larger Su-30MKI fighter aircraft it already has in service.
The IAF has 32 Su-30MKIs and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd is launching licensed production. This compatibility would reduce operation cost due to standardisation of ground testing and training facilities, crew flight training, radar servicing, and delivery of spare parts.
Tamerlan Bekirbayev, chief designer of the Bars radar, told JDW that two variants of Bars-29 are being considered. The first will retain most of the components of N011M Bars. The new antenna has a 60 cm diameter and weighs 50kg -60 kg, about half the weight of the original, which has a 96 cm diameter.
Two other new subassemblies of the Bars-29 will be a super high-frequency receiver and driving oscillator made using the same technology as N011M Bars. The overall weight of the Bars-29 radar will be 350 kg-400 kg, about 100 kg less than the N011M Bars.
Other more ambitious variants of the Bars-29 radar will have new equipment modules made with more recent technology; in this case, the radar weight may be reduced to 250 kg-300 kg.
Bekirbayev said that Bars-29 could be ready within three years.
"We will take maximum advantage of operational algorithms and software that has already been made for Bars. This is the most time consuming part of work on [a] new radar," he said. Some 90 per cent of Bars-29's software will be copied from Bars.
Until recently, RSK MiG Corporation developed new versions of the MiG-29 fitted with slotted-array Zhuk-ME radar, an export variant of the Zhuk-M, made by NIIP's competitors, the Phazotron-NIIR design bureau. The Zhuk-ME is fitted to prototypes of MiG-29M2 MRCA and MiG-29K fighters as well as to the MiG-29SMT manufactured for Yemen and Eritrea.
On 20 January 2004, India bought the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier from Russia and ordered 16 MiG-29K/KUB shipborne fighters, with an option for 30 more to be delivered in 2007-08. According to the contract, the MiG-29K will be equipped with Zhuk-ME radars and there are no plans for installing Bars-29 on these aircraft.
Primetno je drasticno smanjenje mase koristenjem modernije tehnologije koja je upravo ugradjena u Irbis.
P.S.
 Kuca casti pivo. . .hiljaditi post 
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Registruj se da bi učestvovao u diskusiji. Registrovanim korisnicima se NE prikazuju reklame unutar poruka.
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Poslao: 02 Mar 2012 18:07
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- ray ban11
- Legendarni građanin
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^
Sigurno nije jer ga tada nije ni bilo .Mislim ovih novih M2 iz VVS dok oni stariji serijski iz sastava `Sokolova Rusije` iza AB Lipeck tesko da su se koristili u borbene svrhe V-Z .
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Poslao: 02 Mar 2012 18:20
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Ne znam, ja sam na dosta mesta citao da su MKI/MKM koji su u posedu firme Suhoi ucestvovali u ratu 2008 u Gruziji.
http://www.asian-defence.net/2011/07/russian-air-force-orders-thrust.html
Citat:The delivery of the Su-30SM to the Russian armed forces will end a long pause in their acquisition of IAZ-built fighters, after its last Su-30K interceptors and Su-27UB twin-seat operational trainers were handed over in the early 1990s.
It is understood that the decision to procure the Su-30SM was inspired by the successful use of industry-owned Su-30MKI/MKM operational-standard prototypes during Russia's August 2008 conflict with Georgia.
Pretpostavljam da im je uloga bila slicna onoj koju su imali SU-34, s tim sto su verovatno bili ukljuceni i u obezbedjivanje "no fly zone".
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Poslao: 02 Mar 2012 18:30
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- ray ban11
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Sad da li je samo reklama ili mozda stvarnost da su i bili tamo ? Moguce da su i bili ali bi logicnije bilo da su iskoristeni u borbenim dejstvima V-Z tj.napadima na neke vaznije ciljeve i pozicije gruzijskih OS .
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Poslao: 02 Mar 2012 22:21
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@Mean
Citat:Irbis-e ima dva TWT dok BARS ima samo jedan TWT, Irbis-e ima znatno kompilovanije mehanicko postolje od postolja koje ima BARS.
Ustedeo si da kazemo i 30% tezine na samoj elektronici radara ali si ubacio dodatni izvor talasa i masivnije postolje.
Citat:The biggest change is in the EGSP-27 transmitter, where the single 7 kiloWatt peak power rated Chelnok TWT is replaced with a pair of 10 kiloWatt peak power rated Chelnok tubes, ganged to provide a total peak power rating of 20 kiloWatts. The radar is cited at an average power rating of 5 kiloWatts, with 2 kiloWatts CW rating for illumination. NIIP claim twice the bandwidth and improved frequency agility over the BARS, and better ECCM capability. The Irbis-E has new Solo-35.01 digital signal processor hardware and Solo-35.02 data processor, but retains receiver hardware, the master oscillator and exciter of the BARS. A prototype has been in flight test since late 2005.
Tacno je da Irbis ima dva TWT, ali jasno je da to nisu isti TWT kao kod Bars radara. Vidimo da se razlikuju po snazi, sto znaci da se radi o novijoj tehnologiji, a znamo da sa modernizacijom tehnologije u korak ide i miniturizacija iste.
Sto se tice mehanickog postolja razlike su male, tako da nema govora o povecanju tezine u tom sektoru.
Bars
Irbis
Ono sto je iza resetke utice na vecu ili manju masu, a ja pretpostavljam da je Irbis laksi, jer sami konstruktori naglasavaju smanjenje mase aviona zbog lakse elektronike, a odsustvo kanara je vrlo dobar pokazatelj toga.
Znamo da je Bars produkt radara koji su se ispitivali na starom SU-35 i SU-37 i da je upravo velika tezina radara uslovljavala postavku kanara, a SU-30MKI samo nastavlja tu tradiciju.
Ne znam kako bi taj problem bio resen kod SU-35S ako je radar ostao iste tezine, a vidimo da on nema kanare?
Postoji varijanta da se balans letelice "steluje" drugacijim rasporedom tezine unutar letelice ili primenom laksih materijala u konstrukciji.
Problem je u tome sto je radar u vrhu nosa, pa ako koristis lakse materijalne na bilo kom drugom mestu osim tog, napavices jos goru stvar.
Za sada mozemo samo da nagadjamo kolika je tezina Irbis-a dok ne dobijemo precizne podatke od proizvodjaca, ali ipak mislim da je Irbis laksi od Bars radara.
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Poslao: 02 Mar 2012 22:50
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Jos bi samo dodao da postoji mogucnost da su i ostali sistemi kao sto je OLS, sistem hladjenja, avionika itd. laksi, tako da je doslo smanjena tezine u tom sektoru pored smanjenja tezine radara, koje na kraju krajeva ne mora da bude drasticno, ali svakako sam misljenja da je do smanjenja doslo.
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