Rasprava je o tome koliko daleko moze Su-27P sa 10 raketa V-V ( ili sa 8 i 2x kontejnera stanica za akt. ometanje Sorbcija ) da leti peglajuci oko 900 km/h na srednjim visinama ( 10-15km )
Pa genericki tankovi na prosjecnom avionu. Sigurno ne na su27 koji ih ne nosi. Poanta je bila da ako zadrzavanje tankova smanji dolet za 100-200 km onda onda par raketa "zadrzanih" na pola leta smanjuje domet za jos manje od toga.
Citat:Pogledaj sta kod proizvodjaca pise za nosivost UbS
Ja cijelo vrijeme pricam iskljucivo o doletu, cemu konstantno dodavanje drugih tema? Kakve vese nosivost ubs ima s ferry doletom?
Citat:
Rasprava je o tome koliko daleko moze Su-27P sa 10 raketa V-V ( ili sa 8 i 2x kontejnera stanica za akt. ometanje Sorbcija ) da leti peglajuci oko 900 km/h na srednjim visinama ( 10-15km )
Ovo je ocito dio problema nesporazuma jer j.sam ja reagirao na napis o maks doletu, ne o doletu s ubs. A ako se pak tvrdi da su27 leti 4000 km na spomenutoj visini i brzini i pritom jos nosi 10 raketa - e to bi onda tek bila totalna bedastoca.
recimo za UB se navodi `prakticna daljnost` od 3000km ,poznat je slucaj dugog preleta UB .
Citat: In June 1987, Sukhoi's test pilots N.F.Sadovnikov and I.V.Votintsev made two long-range non-stop sorties flying the T10U-2 from Moscow to Komsomolsk-on-Amur (16 June) and back (19 June) with the 13,440 km-long non-stop flight from Moscow to Komsomolsk and back following on 23 June, 1987. During that flight lasting 15 hours 42 minutes, the pilots made four refuellings (vic. the cities of Novosibirsk and Chita). Soon, the T10U-2 escorted by Air Defence Forces' line unit Su-27s flew to the northernmost Soviet airfield - Graham Bell situated on the Land of the Franz-Josef. The in-flight refuelling system tested on the T10U-2 was later mounted on later versions of the Su-27.
Dakle UB je prakticno preleteo 13440km ( krstarenje na srednjim visinama pri krstarecoj brzini oko 900km/h ) sa 4 punjenja gorivom u letu . Udaljenost od Moskve do Novosibirska je blizu 3000km .
Kod UB je nesto veca masa i otpor svakako ,no podatak o daljnosti /preletu do 3900/4000km za varijante P/S moze biti itekako pouzdan i realan ( ne zaboravi da je A.Kvocur upravljao bas verzijom P/PD u demo-grupi `Opitni piloti` )
Cak sta vise pa i onaj sajt `sukhoi.org` na engl. navodi da je kod Su-27SK `max flight range` i to sa 4 rakete V-V preko 3500km .
Sto se bojevog/taktickog radijusa tice ..recimo Su-27S sa 4 tone bombi ( 8x FAB-500 ) u visokoletnom rezimu ima radijus preko 800km sto odgovara mogucnostima varijante P da sa 10 raketa V-V ( 2,5 t ) ima bojevi radijus preko 1500km .
Recimo Rusi su pravili uporednu analizu Su-27 i F-15 na `airbase.ru` i za ` Предельная дальность, км` je navedeno sl .
za Su-27P : 3900km, za F-15A: 1900km ( bez PTB ) ,bojevi radijus dejstva: 1500km za Su-27P i 1100km za F-15A sa 2t spoljnog tereta sa tim da treba dodati isto toliko ili najvise 2,5 t kod Su-27P .
znamo da je masa goriva 100% puni rezerovari 9400kg a potrosnja ( rulanje,poletanje i, dolazak na rezim krstarenja/ visina i brzina / ,nav. rezerva ,sletanje ) ...
Citat:АЛ-31Ф
Удельный расход :
крейсерский режим 0,67 кг*кгс/час
в режиме максимал 0,75 кг*кгс/час
на режиме полный форсаж 1,92 кг*кгс/час
F-15 ima vrlo male sanse protiv Su-27 u bliskoj borbi sa podjednako dobrim pilotima i slicnim sistemima naoruzanja.
Evo sta general Харческий ima da kaze na tu temu:
+ Su-27UB u SAD 1992Citat:
In August 1992, the delegation in structure of the pilots Kharchevsky, the colonel (now in a rank of the general-major and heads the Centre), E. Karabasov major, and the head of the delegation N. Tchaga, general-major, head of the Lipetsk Center of combat training and re-learn of flight personnel has came to the Lengly American Air Base with friendly visit. Two two-seat Su-27UB aircraft and Il-76 military cargo aircraft were included into structure of the command as technical support.
During the visit the Russian side has offered to the Americans to carry out the training air fight. The Americans were politely refused to do so in the all public eye, referred to an extensive air traffic in this area and high density of the population in spite of the fact that the air base, certainly, has had its own air zone closed for flights or temporarily closed for flights of civil airline planes, and private planes.
Finally, the Americans have organised, so-called, joint manoeuvring (training air fight) a little further from another's eyes, i.e. eyes of its own citizens, in the Atlantic Ocean waters.
At Langley (do not mix with Langley place near Washington, where the CIS headquarter located) 1st Wing of tactical fighters, considered as the best aviation unit of the USA Air Forces which pilots have high flight qualification, the excellent tactical preparation and is piloted the most advanced fighters is traditionally dislocated.
As for Americans they made sole flights of F-15 fighter, according to it the Soviet pilots could define weak and strong points of this aircraft. As A. Kharchevsky told later, we have seen, that somewhere it makes sites to increase velocity, counted its turn on seconds and so on. That is, many F-15 performances have become clear to us.
For joint manoeuvring the air zone in 200 km from the Atlantic coast of the USA in an echelon of heights of 2500-8500 m was chosen. Two-place Su-27UB (the Russian pilot in the front cockpit, the American, commander of this air base in the rear one), F-15D (American pilot in the front cockpit and the Russian air attaché, who was pilot too and helped as an interpreter - in the rear), and also two-seat F-15D as an escort and observation plane, in the rear cockpit of which was the photographer with camera were directed to the flight zone. The conditions were typical for a dog fight: attack from the aft hemisphere side (AHS) and the attempt to be held on a rear of the opponent, which one, in his turn, try to destroy the attack and go into the AHS of the attacker by himself.
F-15D attacked by Su-27UB played a target role in the first round, there after it was supposed to change places. For American Eagle a problem to shake the Russian fighter from a tail has appeared impracticable. But the twenty seventh kept the opponent in a sight without special efforts.
The place change had increased a breaking in results even more. Su-27UB attacked by the American by a fast climbing turn on a complete after-burning was broke was loosing contact with the enemy, and after full one and a half turns the twenty seventh came into fifteenth tail and has made capture of the target. After Su-27UB defeated F-15, it was turned out, that it has removed driven evident by this action, by which absolutely not guilty F-15D escort aeroplane has appeared.
After that the Russian pilot has attended to its real opponent - two-place F-15D. And that completely has lost from a view Su-27UB and had been forced to request the escort aeroplane on a site of the opponent. At this time the twenty seventh has gone to F-15D tail and, remaining undetected for it, strongly retained it in a sight, which was reported from the escort plane. The American repeatedly tried to gone from the sight of pursue twenty seventh, but all its attempts appeared in vain.
The pilots rotation in the fighting planes cockpits has not enter any surprises to the results. And the second Russian pilot had beat the new American pilot in the F-15D cockpit as well. Celebrated American Eagle was disgraced by Russian fighter with the Su mark, which this time was in air superiority on short-range approaches to the USA territory. Certainly, this friendly meeting of the potential opponents results were not lighted by the American mass-medias in order to prevent spiteful questions of the tax payers, about on what, really their money does spend.
Kao sto je general naveo 2 Su-27UB ( Bort- ovi 62 i 17 crveni ) su iz AB Lipeck-2 preko baza u Novosibirsku ,Tiksiju i Anadiru doleteli na teritoriju nekad carske ruske Amerike a danas americke Aljaske tj u AB Elmendorf .Iz te baze zatim je bio peregon/ prelet ka AB Grand Forks na severu SAD uz granicu sa Kanadom
Evo i snimka dolaska 2 Suske 13 jula 1992g ( izgleda je da bio jul a ne avgust `92 kako se navodi )
...dalje iz te baze je izvrsen prelet u AB Lengli ( AFB Langley-Virginia ) u kojoj su organizovane a zatim iznad Atlantika i sprovedene zajednicke pokazne vezbe .Dogadjaj je takodje opisan u tekstu sa naslovom `Top Gun na ruski nacin` autora pilota R.D.Krocea u Aeromagazinu br. 54 od dec. 2003g
Citat:Marking the end of the cold war in July 1992, the wing hosted the first leg of a Russian-American fighter
exchange. Thirty-seven members of the Russian Air Force, two Su-27 fighters and one IL-76 transport deployed to Langley Air Force Base. Two months later, two F-15s and 40 wing members visited Lipetsk Air Base, Russia.
+ Su-27UB vs F-15D Citat:All this at an equal level of qualification of pilots reduces the chances of the "Igla" to win in close combat maneuvering over the Su-27. Confirmation of this was the so-called joint maneuvers (a kind of simulated battle), which was held in 1992 during the visit of fighters from the 6 th of the Center of combat employment and retraining of pilots of the Air Force of Russia (Lipetsk) at an air base Leigli (Virginia) where stationed, 1 st Tactical Air Wing U.S. Air Force then fly the Su-27UB to Mr. G. Karabasovu was fairly easy to take and securely hold a position in the tail of F-15D, despite all attempts to tear the American pilot.
In 1993, a return visit to Lipetsk group from the 1 st TFW. Interest is the assessment, which gave the F-15 Russian pilots were able to pilot the "Eagle" in America and at home. Here is the opinion of General A. Harchevskogo: " F -15 - well-managed machine with excellent reviews, which has no restrictions on the spin. When she tries to get a corkscrew from various positions, the plane only leads his nose from side to side, not wanting to start rotating. During the maneuver, "Eagle" leaves on the angles of attack up to 25 °, while maintaining control. Control of the airplane soft, machine perfectly obey the rudders, the efforts of the handle is much smaller than that of the Su-27 However, the aerodynamics of the F-15 less than perfect, which Sukhoi: it accelerates more slowly during the maneuver and quickly stalled. At the same time, the direct acceleration capabilities of both fighters are about equal. Disruption to F -15 starts a little earlier than the Su-27. On his approach. Can be judged, in particular, on-increasing noise in the cabin. F-15 taking off slower than the Sukhoi (in group take-off quartet consisting of two Su-27UV and two F-15 Russian helicopters to
withstand the operation, were forced to turn off the afterburner, while the Americans took off at full afterburner). Minimum speed of the F-15 - 210 km / h. This is significantly higher than that of the Su-27 and MiG-29. However, the effectiveness of the stabilizer tselyyupovorotnogo Igla preserved at run at speeds up to 100 km / h. Bend radius greater than the F-15, which the Su-27 ". In general, according to Harchevskogo, "Eagle" by maneuvering characteristics inferior to the Su-27 and MiG-29. By
Assessment TsBPiGShS other pilot, maneuvering the possibility of "needle" best meet the same capabilities of the MiG-23MLD. According to the pilots of the Lipetsk center, engines F100-PW-200, installed on the F-15C / D, have the worst pick-up compared with the AL-31F.Indirectly, it was showed during the flight in Leigli: sitting in the front cockpit F-15D Mr Karabasov drew attention to the fact that an American pilot working too hard RUDom. Handle the motor control F-15 has no catches, which also, according to Russian standards, it is not convenient. American fighter aircraft cockpit having a dark brown, almost black color of the dashboard and panels, with small, hard to read indicator devices, even delicate Harchevsky called "horrible", not to mention the more categorical Karabasove.
Stiff and uncomfortable and seemed ejection seat. However, the perception of an unfamiliar aircraft cabin by Russian pilots will inevitably be highly subjective, they are simply not accustomed to small-format indicators embedded in the American fighters in the 1950-ies. It can be assumed that a rigid chair Igla can feel better airplane: it is known that the main body of the perception of spatial position of an aircraft is just the rear pilot. But it is unexpected and unexplained absence seemed to Russian pilots of the attractive belt at the ejection seat F-15 (as, indeed, other fighter the USAF). During the piloting Karabasov brought his "Eagle" on the negative
overload and watched as the "floated" an American in the front cabin (the poor fellow did not expect such a maneuver and tightened the belt that secures the pilot in his chair. At the same time, the view from the cockpit of the American fighter was simply gorgeous both forward and backward. It was noted that preflight training F-15 longer than the Su-27, and requires a larger number of operations.
Significantly inferior to the F-15 "dry" and on such an important indicator as the practical range.During the repatriation of Russians over the United States accompanied by the F-15C. Their crews are very worried about a headwind on the road, though each "Eagle" carrying three PTB.
Much more difficult than flying and operational characteristics, to compare the Avionics F-15 and Su-27, because during flight at Langley and Lipetsk Electronics aircraft almost never used.However, by the undoubted advantages of Su-27 before "Iglom (note and Americans) should include the presence of the PA board, in addition to radar, optical and radar sighting system, as well as helmet-mounted sighting system.
With minimal load on external hardpoints not use the F-15 with unpaved runways, with the strength of the order of 12-14 kg / cm 2, but in practice, "Needles", used only a concreted lane.Interestingly, when in 1993, was preparing to visit the F-15 to Russia, there was significant incident. Arriving in Lipetsk to prepare the arrival of their fighters, Americans were horrified by the local runway, which was considered by Russian standards, quite prosperous, and stated that she had to fly the F-15 is just impossible. Eventually, the flight did take place, but the Americans taxiing, taking off and landing with extreme caution.
I vezano za uzvratnu posetu Amera sa 2 F-15D bazi Lipeck sept 1992g ( 4 ti CBP i PLS VVS )
Citat:(LIPETSK AIR BASE) OF FRONTAL AVIATION DIVISION OF RUSSIAN AIR FORCE MARKING FIRST EVER RUSSIAN FIGHTER EXCHANGE VISIT. 1 FW SITE SURVEY TEAM VISITED LIPETSK TO SET UP EXCHANGE VISIT. ON 11 SEP 1992, 1 FW F-15 AIRCRAFT DEPARTED FOR BITBURG AIR BASE (AB), GERMANY ON THEIR WAY TO LIPETSK AB.
Posto nema bas mnogo podataka u vezi ove uzvratne posete ,rezultata sim. dvoboja ako ih je bilo samo da se ponovi komentar iz predhodnog spojlera ,greskom je upisano 1993g ,treba da stoji `92 .
Citat:With minimal load on external hardpoints not use the F-15 with unpaved runways, with the strength of the order of 12-14 kg / cm 2, but in practice, "Needles", used only a concreted lane.Interestingly, when in 1993, was preparing to visit the F-15 to Russia, there was significant incident. Arriving in Lipetsk to prepare the arrival of their fighters, Americans were horrified by the local runway, which was considered by Russian standards, quite prosperous, and stated that she had to fly the F-15 is just impossible. Eventually, the flight did take place, but the Americans taxiing, taking off and landing with extreme caution.
Te zavrsni komentar
Citat:"Here is the opinion of General A. Kharchevsky:
'The F-15 is a well-controlled machine with excellent unbounded visibility in all directions. When you steer it in different directions, the nose stays where you point it without tendency to bounce. During maneuvering the Eagle retains its controllability up to 25 degrees AOA. The controls are easy and the aircraft responds excellently with less force than is necessary in the Su-27. However the aerodynamics are less perfect than in the Sukhoi: it accelerates more slowly in maneuvers and decelerates more quickly. Nevertheless, in a level-flight "race" the various characteristics of the two aircraft are about equal. Supersonic flight occurs a little sooner in the F-15 than in the Su-27. You can detect it from a slight increase in the cabin noise. The takeoff of the F-15 is slower, than the "Sukhoi" (in a group of four aircraft, consisting of two Su-27UB and two F-15, the Russian jets were using minimum afterburner to maintain formation with the Americans taking off on full afterburner). The minimum speed of the F-15 is 210 km/h. It's significantly higher, than in Su-27 or MiG-29. However the effectiveness of the stabilizator on the runway is maintained down to a speed of 100 km/h. The F-15's turn radius is larger than the Su-27's.'
In general, in Kharchevsky's opinion, the Eagle has inferior maneuvering characteristics to Su-27 or MiG-29. Other pilots evaluate the Eagle's maneuvering capabilities as more analogous to MiG-23MLD."
Zapravo Su-27 ima dosta bolje letno-manevarske sposobnosti u rezimu dozvucnih brzina ( 600-1000km/h ) dok je F-15 bolji u rezimu nazdvucnih sto potvrdjuju i ruski izvori ( grafikoni i dijagrami analiza poredjenja letnih i manevarskih karakteristika po visini i brzini leta ) .Poenta je u tome sto se BVB odvijaju upravo u onom dijapazonu brzina koje `odgovaraju` lovcu Su-27 ,zato se i kaze da je njegova `dozvucna aerodinamika` bolja od one kod F-15 .
