Izbor novog visenamenskog aviona za Srpsko Vazduhoplovstvo

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@Taso

u testu se samo spominje dogfajt. ako su i radili simulaciju bvr borbe, pretpostavljam da bi cheetah c mogao nesto protiv mig-29. medjutim, ima tu dosta ogranicenja, recimo rakete r-darter, ne znam da li su bile operativne u to vreme, ali i ako su bile, nisu imale data-link, kao amraam, r77 i mica, sto dosta ogranicava njihovu upotrebljivost. navodno su im kasnije dodali data link, ali je domet ostao dosta manji nego kod ostalih raketa.

mirage 2000 je dosta ispred cheetah, posebno -9, zbog svega, u bvr borbi imaju veci domet i radara (rdy, rdy-2/3) i raketa (mica postoji i kao ic i kao radarski navodjena), a u bliskoj borbi je okretniji i to dosta. mirage 3 je poznat po velikom gubitku brzine u zaokretu, sto su izraelci spretno iskoristili protiv mig-21 i na taj nacih ostvarili mnoge pobede. naravno, prethodno su detaljno ispitali dosta okretniji mig-21. o vecoj snazi motora da i ne govorim.

inace, r-darter ce se izgleda povuci zajedno sa cheetah:

http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showthread.php?t=9836

a radi se na t-darter raketi, oznacena i kao v4, dometa preko 60 km. juznoafrikanci su rzvili/razvijaju prednji deo, valjda sistem za samonavodjenej i mozda bojevu glavu, dok traze partnera za zadnji deo, valjda motor. mozda to nije losa prilika da se nasi ukljuce...

Dopuna: 04 Dec 2008 13:51

spominje se ic samonavodjenje, koje bi moglo da ima domet 15-20 km:

http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showthread.php?t=9836

sto je skoro dvostruko vise od domera radarske glave za samonavodjenje od 10-tak km na ostalim raketama. spominje se i ram-dzet motor, sto znaci da bi domet mogao da dostigne dosta vise od 60 km, mozda i duplo.

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@Taso
Po tvojoj prici reklo bi se da pored F-18 u Australijskom vazduhoplovstvu trebaju uvesti Su35 i na prvom mestu Su-34 kao zamenu za F-111.
Jos kad bi ih hteli/mogli kupiti .

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Malo o dogfight-u

Citat:Superiority in a dog fight can depend on a pilot's experience and skill, and the agility of his fighter when flown at minimum air speeds approaching loss of control (causing a danger of stalling); the winner typically plays to the strengths of his own aircraft while forcing his adversary to fly at a design disadvantage. Dogfights are generally contests fought at low airspeeds, while maintaining enough energy for violent acrobatic manoeuvring, as pilots attempt to remain within air speeds with a maximum turn rate and minimum turn radius: the so-called "corner speed" that often lies between 300 and 400 knots, depending on conditions. Therefore a dogfight has nothing to do with supersonic speed, but much to do with the engine power that makes supersonic flight possible.

Tako sam i mislio.

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leonard ::@Taso
Po tvojoj prici reklo bi se da pored F-18 u Australijskom vazduhoplovstvu trebaju uvesti Su35 i na prvom mestu Su-34 kao zamenu za F-111.
Jos kad bi ih hteli/mogli kupiti .

Nisi jedini koji to misli

Citat:Saving Billions on Air Forces

Air Forces are an essential part of Australia's Defence Force - but billions can be saved by buying more cost-effective Sukhoi Flanker.

http://www.newaustralia.net/defence_airforce.html

Verovali ili ne tokom 90tih, Australija je ozbiljno razmatrala SU-27 kao zamena za F-18 i F-111. Cak je potpisan nekakav preliminarni dogovor izmedju jedne Australske firme i Sukhoi i par SU-27 je poslato na Melbourne Airshow 1997 (prvi i zasad jedini put da vidim SU-27 uzivo).

Australski SU-27 je trebao da ima americku avioniku i bio bi sklapan u Australiju....ali se "Uncle Sam" naljutio i dogovor je propao

.....


Sebab,

simulirana je BVR borba:

The Russian fighters won all dogfights
– both one-on-one and one Russian against two SAAF opponents. The Russians also displayed an impressive long-range advantage


Inace znam za Darter i po svemu sudeci bice dobra raketa, ali nisam siguran cime su bili naoruzani Cheetah tokom vezbe.

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@Taso
skoro se pokrenula neka prica oko Su-30, 34 i 35 u nekoj relaciji sa australijom.
Kako ne znam Ruski nisam bio u stanju da udjem u trag. Medjutim, licno sam sam skeptik i pored toga sto sam ubedjenda bi ga Australija rado usvojila.

Proizvodnja 2 vrlo srodna aviona.

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E da su samo Australijanci o tome razmisljali o Su-27, negde sam citao da je takav predlog izneo i jedan penzionisani americki admiral (koji je tokom svoje karijere leteo na gomili mornarickih aviona). Po njemu idealna zamena za F-14 bi bio Su-27 sa americkom avionikom i (ako moze) americkim motorima.

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Na njega bi odlicno pasali motori sa F-15.
Ovi motori sa F-14 imaju nesto manji miliary trust, ali je zato with after na nivou sa Su-27.

Trebali su da ga otkupe i usavrse. Ali eto oce da se ganjaju i trkaju sa naoruzanjem.

Australiju ce ugrobariti sa svojim nevidljivim. Po svaku cenu zele njihov novac, a ne nudeo ono sto Australiji treba.

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Citat:Cheetah je rezultat opsezne modernizacije Miraza III i usao u upotrebu 1986/87 a C varijanta (ucesnik vezbe) tek ranih 90tih i ne moze se uopste porediti sa originalnim Mirage III.....sto se pilota tice, J. Africki piloti su bili iskusni piloti, neki sa borbenim iskustvom iz Namibije i Angole


Ma hajde uozbilji se. Kakva borbena iskustva? Sa angolskim MiG-21 i 23 koje su leteli Kubanci?

A Cheetah C je prosle godine povucen iz naoruzanja.

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mean_machine ::Malo o dogfight-u

Citat:Superiority in a dog fight can depend on a pilot's experience and skill, and the agility of his fighter when flown at minimum air speeds approaching loss of control (causing a danger of stalling); the winner typically plays to the strengths of his own aircraft while forcing his adversary to fly at a design disadvantage. Dogfights are generally contests fought at low airspeeds, while maintaining enough energy for violent acrobatic manoeuvring, as pilots attempt to remain within air speeds with a maximum turn rate and minimum turn radius: the so-called "corner speed" that often lies between 300 and 400 knots, depending on conditions. Therefore a dogfight has nothing to do with supersonic speed, but much to do with the engine power that makes supersonic flight possible.

Tako sam i mislio.

samo sam boldovao i ono sto se kaze ranije, o iskoriscenju prednosti svog aviona. moguce je da se radi o gresci, er je 300-400 knots, tj. cvorova, 500-700 km/h. ja sam pronasao podatak da se dogfajt vodi negde izmedju 0,8 i 1,2 maha, u jednoj domacoj knjizi iz osamdesetih.

@Taso,

ne znam kad je r-darter postala operativna raketa. ako su rusi doterali r-77, a sigurno jesu, onda je prednost rusa ocigledna, jer r-darter nema data link i upola manji domet. ako r-darter nije bila na cheetah, onda nije ni moglo doci do bvr borbe, odnosno, rusi nisu ni mogli da izgube.

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@sebab
Citat:n 2006 South Africa announced that it will not install the R-Darter in its JAS-39 Gripen fighters and development should be discontinued. The missiles will be removed from service along with the Cheetah C in 2010.
izvor :sistemas de armas

I još nešto zanimljivo
Citat:'Janes Defense Weekly' reports that India is likely to join in the air-to-air missile (AAM) development agreement between Brazil and South Africa. The issue of co-operation in research-and-development (R&D) had been discussed during recent high-level Brazilian military delegation visits to India. Brazil and South Africa had announced their AAM co-operation efforts in 2005.

India also has an indegineous AAM programme - Astra - which is being developed by DRDO and is said to have looked promising in the trials conducted thus far. Keeping in light of the Indian defence establishments recent "foreign collaboration" mantra, it could be possible that DRDO might jointly develop AAMs with Brazil & South Africa. The new tri-national agreement is reported to involve India's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and Bharat Dynamics Ltd (BDL) working in a risk-sharing R&D programme dealing with two projects: a short-range imaging infrared (IIR) missile derived from the South African U-Darter and the Long Range Air-to-Air Missile (LRAAM).
The LRAAM programme would reportedly build on South African design efforts dating back to the 1980s for a 100 km range-class weapon referred to as LRAAAM or Darter-S. A second variant known as T-Darter and incorporating a datalink was also reported. For the collaborative venture, a configuration with a 180 mm diameter airframe powered by a solid-fuel ramjet fed by four air intakes is reported to have been selected. Maximum range would be about 120 km.
A dual-mode RF/IIR seeker was being considered for S-Darter. This remains a possibility for LRAAM, but a scheme involving alternative seekers has been reported: a passive IIR seeker with lock-on after-launch capability and pulse-Doppler radar using an active phased-array antenna. The missile would also have inertial mid-course guidance and a two-way datalink. LRAAM would be fitted with a 20 kg warhead and a laser proximity fuze. It would probably be integrated with the Indian Air Force's Su-30MKI fighters providing a beyond-visual-range capability greater than that associated with the 60 km-range R-77 (AA-12 'Adder') currently used.