MMRCA za IAF

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Mislim da ne bi.
Indija vec koristi Harier-e, Jaguar-e (njih je radila po licenci), tako da im to cak i ide na ruku.
Takodje, u svom naoruzanju ima Mirage2000, sto ide na ruku Francuzima.

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Yellow Pinky ::F-18 ne prodaje savršena aerodinamika , već "prateća oprema" u vidu odličnih motora i elektronike.


Upravo ti motori zakazase na visinskim pripremama u Ladakh Leh-u

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Ranxerox :: Rusi već jako dugo "samo" prate zapadne trendove, a nisu ti koje trendove stvaraju.

Ako je tacno to sto kazes, kako su onda uspesniji na svetskom trzistu naoruzanja od svih zapadnih zemalja osim amerike, a i njima zestoko disu za vrat.
A za PAK FA se slobodno moze reci da ce biti novi "trend seter"

@Vitez

Citat:Epiteti koji se daju F-18 Super Hornetu sa "super slowly" u modernom ratovanju i inženjeringu nepiju vodu !

U slucaju kada protivnicki aparat ima priblizno slicne karakteristike u pogledu radara i elektronike, inferiornost u aerodinamickom i kinetickom smislu itekako dolazi do izrazaja, pogotovo pri izbegavanju protivnicke PVO.
AESA tehnologija vise nije ekskluzivno pravo koriscenja samo americke strane.

@aerodrom

Citat:F-18 kaska u pogledu aerodinamike za Rafalom i Typhoonom. To su avioni koji su 20-ak godina mladji, kada je rec o dizajnu i to je i bio jedan od vaznijih elemenata da se odaberu 2 evropska aviona.
Pored toga, F-18 ima fiksne uvodnike vazduha, pa je to jedan od razloga sto moze samo do 1,8Maha i to teskom mukom. Ubrzanje aviona je lose, pogotovo u transonicnom delu.
Poznati su problemi sa strejkovima, gde su se javljale naprsline (propust u konstrukciji).
Takodje, kod F-18E/F postoji problem sa vibracijom krila i tendencijom aviona da se svali pri srednjim napadnim uglovima. Svetla tacka ovog aviona je AESA radar

Svi avioni na tendru osim Miga 35 imaju fiksne usisnike vazduha.
Pored problema koje si naveo, mozda je interesantno da se spomene ono karakteristicno zakosenje podkrilnih nosaca za naoruzanje , koji stvaraju dodatni otpor vazduha.
Zbog povecanja dimenzija usisnika, nosaci su se nasli u vecoj blizini trupa, tako da je dolazilo do nezeljenih turbulencija koje su sa svoje strane vrsile veliko opterecenje na sam nosac i naoruzanje, a pri otpustanju podvesnog tereta dolazilo je do nekontrolisanog i nepredvidivog kretatanja istog, sto je bilo opasno po sam avion ili avione koji su se nalazili u blizini.
Resenje se naslo u zakosenju, ne samo po horizontali , vec i po vertikali, ali je dovelo do povecanog vazdusnog otpora.
Takodje zbog "wing drop" problema, moralo se potegnuti za resenjima koja datiraju jos od vremena miga 19, kao sto su aerodinamicki umerivaci na krilu, perforiranje samog krila itd.




Sve ovo ne doprinosti smanjenu vazdusnog otpora, kao ni samnjenju RCS.
Moja je pretpostavka da se do primene aerodinamickog zuba doslo zbog nepostojanja negativnog zakrivljenja krajeva krila koje je prisutno na starijim modelima, (a koje doprinosi odlaganju odvajanja strujnica na vecim napadnim uglovima), jer bi uz povecanu krutost i debljinu krila kod SH primenom zakosenja doslo do dodatnog porasta vazdusnog otpora.
Zub formira stabilan vrtlog na gornjoj povrsini krila u vidu pokretnog vazdusnog zida koji je dosta stabilan i nedozvoljava akumuliranom granicnom sloju da se pomera prema kraju krila sprecavajuci na taj nacin odvajanje strujnica.

U svakom slucaju SH ima dosta "nakalemljenih" resenja koja bas i ne idu u prilog samoj agilnosti aviona.

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Prebacio sam raspravu Rusi vs. Ostali na "Virtuelni Dogfight"

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Реакције четири компаније чији су авиони избачени из даљег такмичења на MMRCA тендеру. Грипен НГ "пао" највише због АЕСА радара који је још у развоју и којем је под знаком питања време када ће бити спреман за оперативу.
Руси забринути због негативног сигнала који овај неуспех МиГа-35 шаље у свет. Итд, итд....

Прочитајте ово:

Citat:The MoD’s Technical Oversight Committee (TOC), which must review the IAF’s technical evaluation and flight trials to ascertain that procurement procedures were followed in full, had not completed its work before the MoD sent out the rejection letters.

Министарство одбране мало пожурило са слањем вести о ужем избору

http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/reject.....rn/435542/

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Znas kada su jos radili testiranja. I to su testiranja malo zakasnila jer su malo pricekali Gripenovce. Ono sto IAF kaze potice od samih pilota i podataka dobijenih na testiranjima. Ova "komisija" ministarstva koja ce to kao da proveri da vidi jer su "postovane sve procedure" moze samo da sluzi za namestanje reultata...
Mogu ovi ostali da kukaju ali je jasno koja dva aviona su favoriti.

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TOP GUN ::Znas kada su jos radili testiranja. I to su testiranja malo zakasnila jer su malo pricekali Gripenovce. Ono sto IAF kaze potice od samih pilota i podataka dobijenih na testiranjima. Ova "komisija" ministarstva koja ce to kao da proveri da vidi jer su "postovane sve procedure" moze samo da sluzi za namestanje reultata...
Mogu ovi ostali da kukaju ali je jasno koja dva aviona su favoriti.
Upravo tako, Indija sada treba da ide do kraja, ako popuste slučajno pod razno raznim pritiscima da se ponovo svi vrate u "Igru" i sl. napraviće istorijsku grešku.
Rusi se brinu?, bili se ranije brinuli, pa da su ponudili gotov proizvod, sa AESA radarom, pa bi onda možda problem motora još i bio prihvatljiv.Oni su mislili kako će indijce da zadive akrobatskim mogućnostima borbenog aviona...nije to više ona indija od pre 25 godina, koja se da impresionirati tako jeftinim trikovima.

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Ranxerox ::TOP GUN ::Znas kada su jos radili testiranja. I to su testiranja malo zakasnila jer su malo pricekali Gripenovce. Ono sto IAF kaze potice od samih pilota i podataka dobijenih na testiranjima. Ova "komisija" ministarstva koja ce to kao da proveri da vidi jer su "postovane sve procedure" moze samo da sluzi za namestanje reultata...
Mogu ovi ostali da kukaju ali je jasno koja dva aviona su favoriti.
Upravo tako, Indija sada treba da ide do kraja, ako popuste slučajno pod razno raznim pritiscima da se ponovo svi vrate u "Igru" i sl. napraviće istorijsku grešku.
Rusi se brinu?, bili se ranije brinuli, pa da su ponudili gotov proizvod, sa AESA radarom, pa bi onda možda problem motora još i bio prihvatljiv.Oni su mislili kako će indijce da zadive akrobatskim mogućnostima borbenog aviona...nije to više ona indija od pre 25 godina, koja se da impresionirati tako jeftinim trikovima.

МИГ 35 има готов АЕСА радар као и Ф16 и Ф18 а остали немају и сви су у процедури производње или тестирања тако невидим шта си овим хтео рећи.

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su47berkut ::
МИГ 35 има готов АЕСА радар као и Ф16 и Ф18 а остали немају и сви су у процедури производње или тестирања тако невидим шта си овим хтео рећи.

Hteo je reci da proizvodnja Zhuk-AE zavisi od indijskog tendera tj. od velike porudzbine koju bi Fazotron iskoristio da bi dobio potreban kredit od banke za pokretanje serijske proizvodnje Zhuk-AE radara. Podsecam te pricamo o kompaniji koja se pre nekog vremena nasla pred bankrotom.

Za razliku od njega F-16/18 vec imaju radare u proizvodnji i to vec nekoliko godina.

Ako kojim slucajem Fazotron ne bi mogao resiti probleme u proizvodnji Zhuk-AE, Indusi bi se zaglavili sa Zhuk-ME radarom, a to je realno vrlo slab radar za moderne avione npr. Tajfun ima tehnoloski slican radar ali sa znatno vecom snagom, zbog toga Tajfun ima odlican domet iako ima mehanicki radar.

Ovo inace su pisali Indijci po svojim blogovima i forumima. Negde se cak pominjalo da bi Fazotron bio sposoban da štancuje Zhuk-AE tek 2014godine.

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Britanci vs Francuzi, sta covek drugo i da ocekuje

Rafale vs Typhoon: A History Of Malice

Citat:
In 2005, the typically circumspect-in-public Dassault Aviation had this to say about the Rafale losing to the Boeing F-15 for a Singapore air force contract: "Bamboo always leans the way it's pushed the hardest." It took solace in the fact that its "status of finalist at Singapore proves that [the Rafale] has every chance of becoming an export success". It was a contest in which the Rafale notably pipped the Eurofighter to the final round.

The Rafale and Eurofighter have competed for several contracts, but India's $12-billion M-MRCA fighter competition is perhaps the first competitive tender in which the two find themselves in a two-horse final. The deal also happens to be the largest single contract that either has ever competed for.

The identity of both airplane programmes was born from the famously acrimonious exit of France in 1985 from the collaborative European venture that finally spawned the Eurofighter. And for two airplanes with comparable ancestry and similar design philosophies, the Rafale and Typhoon have inevitably had a journey peppered with mutual hostility. In the last two weeks since the downselect that pushed both aircraft into the M-MRCA final, hostility has been mostly covert. But it hasn't always been like that. Most recently, EADS had this to say, describing the Typhoon's air show performances at Aero India 2011: "Two impressive air displays to show its power, agility and short take off and landing run. Not like the French Rafale - forced to use the spare aircraft after the first one failed the pre-take off checks and that cut its display short probably for some issue also with the second aircraft - the EF at Aero India was without any problems, confirming the 'traditional' reliability of the system when deployed also so far from the main base."

In May 2008, Eurofighter said pretty much the same at the ILA Berlin show: "As the world’s most advanced swing-role combat system flexed its muscles, the aircrew of our competitors, Rafale and Gripen, could only stand next to their parked jets in the static display area and admire the show."

Things really came to a head, however, during the Dubai air show in November 2009, when Eurofighter accused Dassault of feeding the online media with information about how the Rafale had cut the Typhoon to ribbons in simulated engagements over UAE. "The fact that these reports are unofficial," noted Eurofighter a few months later, "could be a sign of our French competitor frustration in not having signed the much anticipated contract with UAE or possibly even to fulfill a basic need to develop positive stories about the currently unexported fighter." The consortium went on to assert that the stories were false simply because the Rafales and Typhoons "worked together on the same team".

The lenghthy rebuttal ended with Eurofighter asserting that "throughout the exercise Typhoon was always carrying a greater payload than Rafale, Typhoon always came into the fight above Rafale and Typhoon take off performance was always more stunning than Rafale - all fully as expected."

A report [PDF] titled The Industrial and Economic Benefits of Eurofighter Typhoon by one Professor Keith Hartley at York University's Centre for Defence Economics (commissioned by the Eurofighter PR & Communications Office, Munich) notes in one part: "Eurofighter has provided a ranking of rival aircraft in terms of cost and combat effectiveness. This ranking shows that for similar cost, Typhoon is more combat effective than Rafale, JSF, F-15E and F/A-18E; the F-16 and Su-35 are cheaper but considerably less capable; and only the F/A-22 is superior to Typhoon on combat performance, but at considerably higher cost. One study reported that in simulated combat against a Su-35, the F-22 shoots down 10 for every one of its own losses; Eurofighter just under half (some 4.5 Su-35s for every Typhoon); and Rafale was next best which lost one for one."

While the American F/A-18 and F-16 were still in the competition, the two European twin-engines had enough on their plates not to train guns at each other, at least too directly. The MiG-35 and Gripen were never real threats as far as either was concerned in the competition. But with all four eliminated, the floor is well and truly open for war. Since the April elimination, there's been mostly shadow play, the usual. Nothing explicit. Nothing out in the open. Things are still delicate. And there are still a large number of questions about how the two-horse situation has been arrived at at all. It's probably typical that despite the competition and the huge number of comparisons, there are no convincing answers about which is a better aircraft. So I'm putting this question out there, and inviting you to share your thoughts: Typhoon vs Rafale - Which aircraft makes better sense for India and why? Vote below, and comment with your opinion.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/05/rafale-vs-typhoon-history-of-malice.html