Sistemi S-300 i S-400 "Triumf"

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Sistemi S-300 i S-400 "Triumf"

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Hvala kolega vrabac na iscrpnim informacijama. Imam molbu za vas a tiče se PARS 9K37 BUK-M (SA-11 Gadfly), da li je problem da se napravite analizu tog sistema (njegova istorija, hijerarhija, sadašnja i buduća upotreba, način umrežavanja sa Kubom i njegova opravdana ili ne opravdana kupovina za VS), jer je na toj temi nema ili je niste objavljivali?



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Buk je sitem sa 100 lica ili barem da kažem 3, jedno zajavnost, drugo za retke strane korisninke i treće stvarno.
Verovatno je po mnogočemu unikatan u istoriji PVO sistema, mislim na složeni prevrtljivi životni put i razvoj.
Izvorno je nastao kao posledica analize Izraelskih dejstava po Kubu PRE događaja iz 1982 u dolini Beka.
Ti događaji su ga samo ubrzali na početku života ito na VELIKA vrata.
Paradoks je bilo njegovo rođenje u SSSR koji je bio uzrok njegove možda i loše koncepcije ili bolje rečeno detalja koji život znače.
Naime usled velikog broja Kubova on je izvorno nastao kao direktna evolucija iz istog. Postoji i međuklon između ta dva sistema. Čak su mu i prve godine života u stvari bile ojačanje Kubova a ne neki totalno smostalni život ma kako drugačije prikazivano.
Takav početni pristup je u stvari odbacio ultramodernu ultimativnu verziju (kojoj su težili i inženjeri i oficiri korisnici) i ostavio u upotrebi međuklonove, i manje savršene modele ali se brzo isteralo na kvantitetu što je u stvari bio rep iz SSSR razmišljanja.
Opet sada znamo da Kub nije STVARNO bio savladan i daj eon STVARNO najvećim dleom savladan tek za 1999. godinu a i tada DELIMIČNO. Može se slobodno reći da su više iskorišćene njegove mane u sistemu komandovanja i upravljanja vatrom kao i neadekvatna opremljenost za rad pod ciljanim smetnjama i noću.
Mane prvih Bukova na žalost i pored pojave Poljane-D4 nisu otklonjene u potpunosti usled neadekvatnosti tog ajd da kažemo KIS-a mada je on više KSA nego ASU ali obavlja funkciju ASU.
Tako se i desilo da se 1999 odnsono nešto kasnije ustanovi da sitemi Buk jednostavno slabo rade.
Srećna okolnost je bila pojava M1-2 verzje koja nije otklonila taj problem (jer nije bilo do sitema neog do KIS-a) ali je predstavljala tehnički napredak koji je bio vidljiv.
Naime Buke je sistem koj pripada istoriji koliko i sadašnjosti, odnosno MNOGO je star.
Početn a koncepcija na koju su mnogi kukali se pokazala međutim daleko ispred svog vremena (kao i na Kubu uostalom). Na primer Buk iz sredine 80-tih se komotno može danas apgrejdovati na novi nivo.
Sistemi S-300PT koji su mu skoro vršnjaci su rashodovani jer ih je bilo nemoguće suvislo apgrejdovati.
Kada je posle deceniju zablude otkirveno da zapad nema dobar odgovor naovakve sisteme otišlo se udalji razvoj radije nego da se čekaju neki novi savremeniji projekti.
Ono što je bilo najgore su bili sitemi veza i upravljanje vatrom i to je odmah uklonjeno, zatim način skupljanja i(ili) dobijanja informacija u VaP-u sa SPOLJNIH izvora što je takođe uklonjeno. Na kraju je uptrebom podižućih radara (ali i novim vrstama sitema i metoda navođenja) stavar no obezbeđena svevisinsko presretanje ciljeva. Kao savršen bonus, vrlo zančajan je pristigla i značajna višekanalnost po ciljevima koja je od verzije od verzije podizana.
Tako se Buk vratio na MALA vrata ali u potencijalno vleikom broju (paradoks paradoksa) i sada je noćna mora za zapad. Zapravo može se slobodno reći da je prekomponovanje i analiza stvarnih performansi u svetlu REB, na isti način kao i za Buka vratila i Anteja S-300V. Ne bih da budem zlurad (mada imat ačno premo kome) ali ko je ikada video Rusku trupu PVO (pre svega u zoni Kavkaza i Crnog mora) znao je to i pre desetak godina, samo što je bilo u tajnosti i nije se moglo trenutno ništa učiniti u većoj meri zbog Poljanje-D4 i PORI. Naime kod oba sistema su bili problemi KIS i ASURI sitema (ASURI- Atomatski Sistemi Upravljanja Radarskom Informacijom) kao i u nedostatku nekih radara kao spoljne pdrške i kada su onvi problemi otkonjeni tak onda su sistemi pokazali svoju pravu moć.
Osto je smao jedan polurep i jedan ozbiljan problem.
Polurep je korišćenje golih raketa a ne kontejnera. Polurep jer većina ne zan da u stvari postoje sasvim dobri kontejneri PRE nego što se napune Punjač-lanseri. No to je drug priča i kod Rusa je trenutno vezana sa brzim izlaskom na ciljnu snagu bez troškova. Jbg. vreme diktira način ponašanja.
Rep je problem same rakete, koja u opštoj koncepciji pomalo zsatareva pre svega u smislu maksimalnog dometa. Međutim postoje sasvim dobre indicije da se biro ne da i da je već spremna raketa sa dometom iznad 50 km, zapravo čak do 70 km. Ako im je to stvarno uspelo, obzirom na borbenu nišu ukojoj ovaj sitem deluje to će mu produžiti život još ne decenijama nego duboko u ovaj vek.
Jedin konkurent će mu biti ovaj najnoviji kineski sitem koji se i razvio na osnovu Buka ali po kineskom maniru (svaka čast) odrađen kao mali S-300P u smislu kompozicije sistema.



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Citat:Tako se i desilo da se 1999 odnsono nešto kasnije ustanovi da sitemi Buk jednostavno slabo rade.

Зашто баш 1999.?

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Kako su te pmu1/2 verzije s300ki dosle u aktivni inventar ruskih oruzanih snaga? Ima li tu neka prica iza toga?

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  • vrabac 
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Zixo: Oborona - 2000
Eridan: Ima. El vidiš koliki im je broj, to ti sve govori. Međutim sa oba sistema je postojala povratna sprega ka sopstvenim sistemima u smislu tehničkog toka usavršavanja.

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Jel može to u malo više detalja, kako, zašto, kada? Ne moraš ni sam tipkati, ako je neka duga priča pa ti se ne da, samo daj neki ruski link, štogod.

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Ukucaj ćirilicom Oborona-2000 pa ti se možda pojavi neki link da ga ja sad ne tražim to je objavljeno još 2003 otprilike.
A za one druge si skontao, NISU U STALNOM SASTAVU u slučaju rata dobijaju FABRIČKE POSADE.
Al bajo kakve su to posade... Više piju, zezaju se ko ludi,neuredni su, ali sva im tehnika savršeno radi, popravljaju je i drugima kome treba i neviđeno gađaju...

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@Vrabac

Sa teme o ruskim radarima:Citat:Sve u svemu radar Lira 96L6 je radar pojedinačnih diviziona sitema S-300 i S-400.
Ovo me sad malo buni, da li Rusi ovo sprovode u praksi, kad divizon ne deluje samostalno vec u okviru puka, ili koriste samo nisanski? Citat:No realna borba u PVO je poglavito vezana za nišanske radare i njihov broj i osobine daju legitimnu ocenu borbenih mogućnosti. Naravno i drugi faktori nisu manje bitni jer je u pitanju vrlo kompleksan sitem. Na primer broj akvizicionih prema nišanskim radrima kao i vrste akvizicionih radara.
Jel moze ovde malo dalje pojasnjenje, u pogledu tog brojcanog odnosa nisanski-akvizicioni? Idealna stuktura, kako je kod Rusa itd?

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Od prvog S-300PM (možda i grešim možda i ranije) je uzimana u obzir varijanta da divizion deluje samostalno ili eventualno par diviziona, pri čemu bi Krokodil(i) i jedna Niva bili akvizicioni radari.
Lira 96L6 je PLANSKI projektovana da bude REZERVNO komandno mesto ako dođe do raspadanja pukovskog komandnog nivoa.
TO U STARVI KOINCIDRA SA SA STALNIM OBLIKOM KOMANDOVANJA NA S-300V.
Ful oprema bi ti zato bila uz svaki nišanski radar 1 Krokodil + 1 Lira (ranije Niva).
Kinezi su odbacili Krokodila i uveli svoj niskovisinac.
Oprema varira od topografskih (primarno), taktičkih (sekundarno) i strateških razloga (drugi primar).
Tako je minimum minimuma 1 Krokodil 1 Niva (lira) i 1 Stervjatnik a maksimum maksimuma
6 Korkodila, 6 Lira, 1 Stervajtnik + opcija (na S-400) za još dva dodatna radara u izboru Gama-D Mod., Nebo-M(SVU), Protivnik.

Proces raspadanja puka i formiranja divizionskih oblika je cla jedna mala analiza i sovjevremeno sam ga polkonio Libijcima (između ostalog). No sve zajedno je na nivou 2 u Libiji ocenjeno negativno (bilo je tu još svega i svačega). Naravno u tim radovima je bila i gomila brljotina koje bi otklonio da su mi dali posao. Nisam tražio pare nego posao. Na moju sreću izgubili su jednog koji bi bio na Gadafijevoj (A.S.) strani.

Veroavao ili ne operaciona itraživnaja mogu da odrede OPTIMLAN broj akvizicionih radara za svaki dati PVO sitem.
Međutim ima mnogo ulaznih faktora koji ponekad variraju u vrlo širokim granicama po raznim kriterijumima, tako da ti u realnoj praksi ostaje isto kao kod mašinskog projektovanja, u školi su te naučili principima a u praksi (osim kod vrlo vrlo utemeljenih velikih i snažnih armija sa silnim pomoćnim institutima, pa ponekad čak ni tada) u KONRETNOJ situaciji moraš praktično HEURISTIČKI da rešiš problem. Sirijski i Libijski model su na primer srašno različiti.
Za proste modele ipak postoji školski empirijski rezultat i on je neko merilo koje se drži u glavi ali u praksi može mnogo da se odstupa od njega. Probaj sam da dođeš do rezultata heuristički: početni model ima N nišanskih radara i M osmatračkih radara. Postoje granice optimuma. Poredak modeluj prvo kordonski potom kružno. Pokušaj.
Posebno ako model ukomplikuješ po bandovima i po dometima a posebno po prenosu podataka i običnoj vezi koji mogu sasvim da promene stvarnu sliku optimuma, što sada svi rade (barem pametni).

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Napisano: 11 Jul 2012 12:48

@vrabac - fala na iscrpnom obavještavanju.

Izgleda da je Venezuela uzela 1 diviziona S-300VM i 3 Diviziona BUK-M2

Bjelorusi će in konstruirat integriranu PVO - jel moš pojasnit koliko su oni efikasni u tome u odnosu na

Ruse. Kad pogledaš uzeli su Kineske EW radare, Ruske PVO sustave i Bjeloruse da in sve to integriraju. Zanimljivo.

Sad na drugu stranu sami sustavi S-300V su namjenjeni obrani oklopnih armija. Kako je priča konstantno u smijeru PVO obrane Venezuele mislim da bi se tu mogli pojavit i tipa Favorit sustavi.

Citat:07/11/12 THE SKY OVER VENEZUELA WILL PROTECT THE BELARUSIAN AIR DEFENSE SYSTEM

July 11 2012 .



BelaPAN, July 9. Belarus is the coordinator of the project to create a unified air defense system of Venezuela, which promises to Minsk considerable financial and economic benefits.



In the coming years, Belarus and Venezuela plan to implement joint projects worth about $ 5 billion. On this, commenting on the results of his visit to Venezuela, Alexander Lukashenko said on June 28 in Caracas, first vice-premier Vladimir Semashko. He listed a number of areas of cooperation, but on cooperation in the field of defense was not told anything.



Meanwhile, these issues were among the major in international relations from the time of signing by the heads of Belarus and Venezuela memorandum of understanding between the two countries. The document was signed on September 16, 2006 in Havana during the next summit of the Non-Aligned Movement.



Hot on the heels of the Security Council then Secretary of State (and current assistant to Alexander Lukashenko on the interaction with Venezuela) Viktor Sheiman said that the implementation of the plans of the Belarusian-Venezuelan military cooperation will provide economic benefits in excess of $ 1 billion. Sheiman also said that it will provide orders of dozens of enterprises of the Belarusian defense industry for many years to come.



According to experts, meant primarily the acquisition of Belarusian Venezuela automated control systems for air defense and air forces, means of radar and electronic warfare. A few months before the signing of the memorandum referred to President Hugo Chavez has publicly stated that his country needs modern air defense systems to cover the overhead lines on the Caribbean coast to the border with Brazil.



According to information from various sources, the representatives of Venezuela's air defenses are actively interested in all levels of man-portable air defense systems and small-caliber anti-aircraft artillery to the long-range air defense missile system. However, before the Venezuelan military was a question to ensure an integrated, coordinated management of all these weapons. And as Hugo Chavez did not want to deal with the Western countries, the choice fell on Belarus.



The result was an agreement on cooperation in creating a unified air defense system in Venezuela. It was signed in Caracas on December 8, 2007 during the visit of Alexander Lukashenko. Agreement has been provided that Belarus would have Venezuela and assistance in creating a unified air defense system and a national system of electronic warfare on the basis of a research project carried out joint Belarusian-Venezuelan commission.



And in January 2008, going on a visit to Minsk, Chavez said that one of the main goals of his trip is to agree on the specific details of the contract for the acquisition of an integrated air defense system. It had to enter "early warning radars and missiles appropriate range." Matching was successful, and April 9, 2008 the House of Representatives in closed session (as requested by Chavez) has ratified an agreement on cooperation in creating a unified air defense system in Venezuela.



This document contained an agreement that the organization of the Venezuelan sign contracts with the organizations of Belarus and other countries to purchase goods and services in accordance with the project of air defenses and electronic warfare, prepared by Belarusian specialists. According to independent experts, subcontractors, along with the defense industry enterprises of Belarus were to speak Russian, Chinese and Iranian companies.



Agreement is also governed by the participation of Belarusian specialists in creating a unified air defense system and electronic warfare system of the armed forces of Venezuela. According to the document, Venezuela has assumed the costs of the advisers and their families. It was agreed that members of the family counselor can not perform in the territory of the host country paid work and to participate in hostilities. Agreement defined the security measures of military experts, the conditions of their stay, providing medical care, insurance in case of death, injury or illness, an accident, the loss of or damage to property.



The agreement was concluded for five years and will be automatically renewed for each subsequent five-year period, until one of the parties for one year prior to the expiration of the period did not send, through diplomatic channels, written notice to the other party of its intention not to renew the agreement. However, by agreement between the parties to the agreement may be terminated at any time.



Shortly after the ratification of the document then-Deputy Chief of Staff Peter Tikhon of Belarus has promised that the system of air defense and electronic warfare in Venezuela, including the training of professionals and managers, will be created from scratch in six years. And this, among other things, will allow Belarus to enter the market of weapons in Latin America.



Elaborate air defense system of the project was more than a year. His general position September 14, 2009 Hugo Chavez announced. From his words implied that the country's air defense system will be integrated (Layered in range and height) and unite under a single control anti-aircraft missile systems S-300, "Buk-M2" and "Pechora-2M".



"We need to protect strategic sites, such as hydropower," Guri ", oil fields, major oil refineries, industrial complexes, of course, military installations and command centers, large cities such as Caracas, to feel more secure" - said the Venezuelan leader.



A few months later, on March 16, 2010, speaking at the National Assembly of Venezuela, the defense raised the topic and Alexander Lukashenko. He, in particular, promised his Venezuelan counterpart cooperate fully in the creation of a "system of national defense," which will not be afraid of anyone, even the most powerful enemy.



According to military experts, under the state defense system in Venezuela means the organization of an integrated defensive systems, including air defense, electronic warfare and counter precision-guided weapons. That involves the use of as its "brain" of the automated command and control systems such as automated "Bor", which is now the intellectual core of the air defense of Belarus.



An important element of the Venezuelan defense can become a mobile radar meter band "the East", able to detect the B-52 bombers and airborne early warning aircraft at a distance 255 km . The new radar several times raised the possibility of detecting not only targets, such as the F-16, but also aircraft, manufactured by technology "stealth".



If we talk about the means of electronic warfare, in this context often referred to Belarusian electronic intelligence systems 85V6 85V6-A and-B, designed for detection, recognition and support of up to 100 ground-based air and sea facilities for the emission of radio-electronic means. Air targets at altitudes 10 km they find a distance 400 km . To suppress the on-board electronics Venezuelan military combat aircraft may be proposed power station jamming SNP-SNP-2 and 4. From the latest developments - radio station P-934UM "Blow" and the R-378UM "Prick."



It is likely that Venezuela will be supplied with the latest means of combating high-precision weapons. Some of them have already arrived in the Belarusian army for trial operation. In particular, a set of jamming laser guidance systems "Sapphire" and the complex global system of radio navigation GPS «Shed Y".



As for anti-aircraft missile, then, according to some analysts, the companies of the Belarusian defense industry, in cooperation with the Russian Oboronprom, suppliers are able to speak here of modernized air defense systems short-range S-125 "Pechora".



For quite a long time in the public domain no details about the project to create a unified air defense system in Venezuela. Nevertheless, some information is available. For example, most recently in the media was given the statement by Minister of National Defence and the Chief Command of the Venezuelan strategic operations, Army General Henry Rangel Silva, the creation of "Pechora Databases" in the International Airport, Joseph Camejo Las Piedras (Paraguana Peninsula).



According to "Jane's Defence Weekly", the base was stationed the first battery of self-propelled air defense missile system "Pechora-2M" production of the Belarusian-Russian interstate financial-industrial groups, "Defense Systems". The main objective is to protect the battery in the country's largest refinery complex. Ten other similar databases are created on the territory of the country in the formation of the Joint Chiefs defense (CADAI - Comando Aereo de Defensa Aeroespacial Integral).According to some sources, the contract for the purchase of air defense missile system "Pechora-2M" Venezuela has entered into in September 2009. Deliveries began in May 2011 and be completed in the near future. Altogether, according to unofficial data, Caracas ordered 11 such complexes.



Purchase of mobile medium-range missile systems "Buk-M2E" (three divisions) and S-300VM-range (one division) and was approved in September 2009, but they still have not delivered. CADAI plans stipulate that they must be received before the end of 2012. As a result, procurement and deployment of all of the projected air-defense systems will be protected from attack by the entire territory of Venezuela. In addition, according to unconfirmed reports in the future Caracas can offer its neighbors - Guyana and Colombia - to create a unified air defense system. However, official confirmation of this information is not available.



Alexander Alesin

http://belapan.com/



Dopuna: 11 Jul 2012 15:26

Također pojavia se iscrpan izvještaj o tome šta je Almaz-Antej radia kroz 2011-u

Izvještaj se tiče svih protuzračnih sustava za Rusiju i eksport.

Ako imaš vrimena bi li moga u kratkim crtama napisat najbitnije iz raporta

http://www.raspletin.ru/files/12021/Godovoy%20otchet%202011.pdf

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